Comments on: Clarkson and the soldiers http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/ Pete, Dicker & Chris Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:49:55 +1100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Dicker http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/comment-page-1/#comment-258 Dicker Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:17:44 +0000 http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/#comment-258 <p>Yep, there's lots to consider...<br /> Nathan, you said...</p> <blockquote><p>"Can we then conclude that an individual’s primary response to evil ought to be to turn the other cheek, whereas governments have God-given responsibility to execute appropriate punishment for evil?"</p></blockquote> <p>Romans 12:17-21 has more to say on the personal response to evil, or rather, a persons response to evil <i>against them<i>...</p> <blockquote><p>"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary:<br /> "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;<br /> if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.<br /> In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."</p></blockquote> <p>It seems to me that when someone wrongs you, the primary response is to turn the other cheek (though I don't think this means leaving the proper govt authorities out of the matter). It seems to suggest that a revenge attack is not the appropriate response, and this is what I think Jesus is getting at on the Sermon on the Mount.<br /> However, if you were to see another person in need - being attacked, picked on, beaten up etc...- I think the Bible supports a "defend the defensless" approach. God is described as one who defends the fatherless and the widow (deut. 10:18) and the Israelites are supposed to do the same within their own community. Where possible, I think this needs to be enforced through the appropriate govt channels, and always with wisdom and care, and never with anger. Jesus intervening in the stoning of the adulteress (john 8 ) might be an example of diffusing a situation with wise words and a cool head...</p> Yep, there’s lots to consider…
Nathan, you said…

“Can we then conclude that an individual’s primary response to evil ought to be to turn the other cheek, whereas governments have God-given responsibility to execute appropriate punishment for evil?”

Romans 12:17-21 has more to say on the personal response to evil, or rather, a persons response to evil against them…

“Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

It seems to me that when someone wrongs you, the primary response is to turn the other cheek (though I don’t think this means leaving the proper govt authorities out of the matter). It seems to suggest that a revenge attack is not the appropriate response, and this is what I think Jesus is getting at on the Sermon on the Mount.
However, if you were to see another person in need – being attacked, picked on, beaten up etc…- I think the Bible supports a “defend the defensless” approach. God is described as one who defends the fatherless and the widow (deut. 10:18) and the Israelites are supposed to do the same within their own community. Where possible, I think this needs to be enforced through the appropriate govt channels, and always with wisdom and care, and never with anger. Jesus intervening in the stoning of the adulteress (john 8 ) might be an example of diffusing a situation with wise words and a cool head…

]]> By: Nathan http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/comment-page-1/#comment-257 Nathan Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:23:09 +0000 http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/#comment-257 Dicker, I like where you're going and looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this issue. My own feeling is that there are just wars, the difficulty is as you observe, determining just which wars are just. Picking up on your comment Pete, Romans 13 suggests itself to me as a key passage in the discussion, as it clearly states God's establishment of governing authorities and their sanction to restrain and punish evil as a dimension of his own judgment: "For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (v3-4). It seems from these verses that governing authorities who "bear the sword" are servants of God who provisionally, though imperfectly, reflect his judgment on evil. Having said that, I am reminded of Jesus' radical commands in his sermon on the mount: "Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matt 5:39). But here he is addressing individuals, not governments. Can we then conclude that an individual's primary response to evil ought to be to turn the other cheek, whereas governments have God-given responsibility to execute appropriate punishment for evil? Dicker, I like where you’re going and looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this issue. My own feeling is that there are just wars, the difficulty is as you observe, determining just which wars are just.

Picking up on your comment Pete, Romans 13 suggests itself to me as a key passage in the discussion, as it clearly states God’s establishment of governing authorities and their sanction to restrain and punish evil as a dimension of his own judgment:

“For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer” (v3-4).

It seems from these verses that governing authorities who “bear the sword” are servants of God who provisionally, though imperfectly, reflect his judgment on evil.

Having said that, I am reminded of Jesus’ radical commands in his sermon on the mount: “Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matt 5:39). But here he is addressing individuals, not governments.

Can we then conclude that an individual’s primary response to evil ought to be to turn the other cheek, whereas governments have God-given responsibility to execute appropriate punishment for evil?

]]> By: Dicker http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/comment-page-1/#comment-254 Dicker Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:52:58 +0000 http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/#comment-254 That's some heavy thinking... There are some big ideas floating through that blog, like God's sovereignty and how he uses people to accomplish his purposes or send judgement... I think the issue of war or how justice is administered is often never clear cut... I think war always bad but... sometimes right and necessary. The tough part is deciding when is it right? I've got somemore thoughts on this, but I might put them in a blog... That’s some heavy thinking…
There are some big ideas floating through that blog, like God’s sovereignty and how he uses people to accomplish his purposes or send judgement…
I think the issue of war or how justice is administered is often never clear cut…
I think war always bad but… sometimes right and necessary.
The tough part is deciding when is it right?

I’ve got somemore thoughts on this, but I might put them in a blog…

]]> By: Pete http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/comment-page-1/#comment-253 Pete Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:33:47 +0000 http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/#comment-253 What I was trying to get at though, is that we always say that it's not our place to act as God's judgement on the oppressors etc, but what if it is (in certain cases)? It's rare that we see God fighting on behalf of an army with angels and swords of fire, so we might assume that He uses different methods at times, that in theory might involve human armies, or even individual Christians? Or not. What I was trying to get at though, is that we always say that it’s not our place to act as God’s judgement on the oppressors etc, but what if it is (in certain cases)?

It’s rare that we see God fighting on behalf of an army with angels and swords of fire, so we might assume that He uses different methods at times, that in theory might involve human armies, or even individual Christians?

Or not.

]]> By: Fi http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/comment-page-1/#comment-252 Fi Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:00:34 +0000 http://www.thechroniclesof.net/2008/01/24/clarkson-and-the-soldiers/#comment-252 <p>This is something I have thought about too, but not enough to have come to any conclusions... I hope others can comment more insightful things then myself. I know we have a role to be a voice for those who are voiceless, the oppressed, widows,etc... so to speak up for them and to defend their cause... though I know that I am not the one who is meant to inflict judgement on those oppressing them, that I am to trust God to do this... so I guess my next thought is what does speaking up look like? or perhaps more....what does defending look like? so I guess one principle might be wanting to act out of defending and loving and caring for the most vulnerable and not out of judging and inflicting punishment on the perpertrator....</p> This is something I have thought about too, but not enough to have come to any conclusions… I hope others can comment more insightful things then myself. I know we have a role to be a voice for those who are voiceless, the oppressed, widows,etc… so to speak up for them and to defend their cause… though I know that I am not the one who is meant to inflict judgement on those oppressing them, that I am to trust God to do this… so I guess my next thought is what does speaking up look like? or perhaps more….what does defending look like? so I guess one principle might be wanting to act out of defending and loving and caring for the most vulnerable and not out of judging and inflicting punishment on the perpertrator….

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